devi
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Post by devi on May 4, 2005 22:30:05 GMT -5
Okay so what all kinds of vamps are there? There are Elites, Purebloods, just normal humans who were turned and I think that's all we know. So what were the old vamps? As I understand it they were demons of some kind but from there to the purebloods there's a big gap and from anywhere to the elites there is a big gap.
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Post by Amelius on May 5, 2005 19:49:20 GMT -5
Perfect timing! I was thinking that I needed to post something like this soon!
there are several vampiric variations.
the first ones (that are more demonic) are the vampires that came from the same place fae creatures and demons came from. they are derived from fae/daemons and elves, as these are also known for vampiric activity upon humans. they can breed amongst eachother, have a normal childhood and an eternal adulthood (but they never physically grow older than the appearance of a 30 year old human) They also have a lot of magic power in them. Quixoto is from this line and he calls himself an "Ancient".
after some time, these lead to the second generation ( not litereally the "second" but separated by this name to identify they are "evolved" even though it's due to human blood dilution) known as the purebloods, after a while had become more "human" in appearance and nature, but still retained their demonic traits in most cases. these can float, transform into a few forms (mostly weaker forms for disguise rather than protection) and have mind powers. Uma is one of these. they are much like the older vampires, just appear different.
A few human-original vampire crossbreedings also lead to the breed known as "pureblood" but the name is more in reference to the fact that they were BORN a vampire, not made into one. these are the typical pointy-eared, but demonic trait void ones. Rodericke is one, and there are a lot of these in the comic, but not as many as the next category....
sirelings, infected humans, which are typically sterile but can still infect other humans and sometimes animals with vampirism. This category includes humans turned by other means such as magic and other curses that usually turn a human without a vampire bite. This kind can however breed with humans, which then produces the anti-vampire breed, the dhampire. (we haven't seen any of those yet)
Sirelings and dhampires are typically weak compared to their pureblood comrades. but they inherit strength, agility, speed, and the ability to leap. They tend to be more subservient and easy to mislead, and have a special affinity for the one who sired them if such is the case.
Elites, are not really a separate race on their own but more or less a mutation. the elite strain is spread through what appears to be a magic virus. it chooses its host at random, and is transferred through the bite. it moves on to the next host after a successful spawning. Elites have the ability to control this magic in them to turn their own victims elite, since it stays in them but will not pass on unless they want it to. there is still much to be explained about the purpose of this, and how it started. Of course, elites have super-abilities, and almost any entity can be turned elite (only if an elite bite it with that intent though) They are not without weakness though, as they have a tendency to get fixated on something and become defensive of whatever they posess as their own, they also have a tendency to be moody, over-amorous, but very intelligent (sometimes even if they weren't in life) I'll write more when I have more time...
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devi
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Post by devi on May 5, 2005 20:16:55 GMT -5
Okay so if I understand this a Dhampire is the child of a human with a vampire who wa turned by some means other than a bite. And the Elite triat has more to do with a magical mutation than vampirirsm, and, if an elite wantexd it could be transferred to another creature, with or without vampirism.
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Post by X Daggers on May 7, 2005 22:19:47 GMT -5
Ok, so vampires were a race originally? So why would humans get "infected" and turn into one when they're cursed/bitten? Just curious how you decided to work all that out.
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Post by Amelius on May 9, 2005 21:55:59 GMT -5
indeed, but also a pureblood could also have a child with a human and it would also become a dhampire.
Well, most vampire myth I've read says that Lilith, the first wife of Adam who was rejected, was the first vampire who brought the infection to humans, but she's also the queen of succubi and all other sorts of things so I don't care for that one. I chose to go with the other theory of where fae and earth demons come from, with is angels (both innocent and bad) cast from heaven with Lucifer who weren't quite evil/heavy enough to fall into Hell but couldn't return to Heaven. The theory goes that without all their power and such, they weakened or otherwise they degenerated and became other things to adapt to the new surroundings. good and bad split accordingly, good being light elves, good fae, brownies, nature spirits and the like, bad becoming dark elves, goblins and trolls and other such that claim to harass and torment mankind. The curse of vampirism was not intended, it became somewhat of a disease with the mixing of their demonic saliva with a human's blood. it's still unclear just WHY they love human blood so much, but since vampires are essentially the only demons that attack a human and feed without really harming the rest of the body, it leaves better chance for the corpse to become reanimated in such a way. In a way, a spawned vampire can be likened to a zombie, as it is a reanimated corpse of a human, but the abilities of the first ones are inherited giving it an advantage over other such revenants. As it is, I haven't heard much in the way of vampires being human at one time....
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Post by X Daggers on May 9, 2005 22:28:56 GMT -5
Yeah with all myth like that, you can totally bend it to your will if you want so I wanted to see. They were created by scared villagers waaay back and there's all sorts of wierd things that they would do to keep the things back. Who knows if there was any truth to it at all. I like the idea of them being a type of demon. I also heard that Cain turned into one because he killed his bro. I think that's the Vampire: The Masquerade excuse.
Another example of Christianity absorbing local myth and such. (^_^) Cain/Lilith, that is.
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Post by Amelius on May 9, 2005 22:38:03 GMT -5
oo, I hadn't heard that one before! thanks! I know, it is really interesting to look into the origins of things like this, it can get a bit confusing sometimes though. I try not to get too religious with the comic though, since I know it can be a touchy subject. I know for sure because I'm related to people that think reading Harry Potter makes kids commit suicide... I've not read them myself, but the writing can't be THAT bad!
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Post by X Daggers on May 9, 2005 22:50:29 GMT -5
Haha. I read the Harry Potter books, I even have them, and they're well written enough but not too hard for children. Hmm, I really dislike those people. They point fingers in all the wrong places. Well anyway, yeah I love dicussions of religion but people have mauled me before so I've avoided talking about it except for remote areas and still... I found a cool origin site about Orkney with the selkies and stuff. www.orkneyjar.com/ Very interesting reads.
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devi
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Post by devi on May 10, 2005 1:00:38 GMT -5
Vampire legends are old, way old. And very widespread too. I mean, if you consider that marathon went down in history for only taking two days to run thirty miles or whatever, and that the earth is over a hundred-twenty-thousand miles around. The Idea that Ancient greeks, ancient Chinese, ancient native ameiricans, ancient africans, ancient egyptians, and old aborigional tribes of australia all had vampire myths, it tends to lend credence to the idea that there might be some kind of kernel or truth to vampire legends. I believe ancient greeks thought vampires were sevants/ adopted children of thier three faced godess of witchcraft/sorcery. The Indus vally people thought of them as children of demons and humans. Ancient chinese thought that they were hopping ressurected corpses that could see your breath. The aboriginies of australia thought they were a frekish swamp dwelling creature that swallowed their victem whole drained some and then regurgitated a usually livin victem. So the myths are very different from cuture to culture but some things stay the same; It is always a humanoid, somehow associated with the dead and with night that desires the blood of humans. As far as i know that is true of every vampire story/legand/myth. And this lines up well with two conditions, one hydrophobia, which is also attributed with the lycathropy legend, and some sort of psychosis often seeming to be hereditary by which the afflicted believes that they can become healthier through the blood of other people. There are other beliefs that various diseases and disorders caused vampire legends to propogate, but I can only say that these ideas go so far. How is it thatno matter where you go you talk of a bloodsucking monster and the native people know what you're talking about. I am vary religious and deeply spiritual; I believe in spiritual beings especailly malign ones. I know they're out there, outnumbering humans a hundred to one, faster than us smarter than us wittier than us stronger than us more flexable and adaptable than us and with capabilites that we could only dream of. They probibly see us as a combonation of little brother/little sister and prey. I'm not sure how they work. Personally I think that they probibly propogated the vampiric legends, through physical manifestation or heavy possession, as part of one of their many many ingenois and quite subtle plans. I can only guess why they would want people to believe or not believe in vampires, but I know that whatever they do is not in our best intrest, though they may think otherwise.
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devi
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Post by devi on May 10, 2005 1:08:50 GMT -5
Then again, there are the Nephilim, these pretty well describe what Amelius was referring to as the progenerators of elves and the like, although according to the new testement after the 128 year grace period they are cited as having, they were supposedly locked up with chains in a dark place between Sheol and Tarterus (Bible research is fun!, based Upon Genisis and one of the Episles, I think it was 1 Corinthians, the references can be subtle so keep your eyes open) Then again the nephilim were supposed to be "Great among men" and were generally wonderful and admired leaders in thier time. And it is unclear weather Nephilim were fallen angels or the children of "sons of god"(also an ambiguous term gven the context) and "daughters of man". Some people take thins to mean children of humans and fallen angels while others take it to mean sons of Seth had children with Daughters of Cain. The latter doesn't jive with me.
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devi
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Post by devi on May 10, 2005 22:19:51 GMT -5
Was I Going somewhere with this? Oh yeah. As part of one of my pseudo-theological persuits I happened to be looking up lilith. I was reaserching kahbbalistic tuff on the Sefirot and Ein Sof at the time when I saw that Lilith was also a major part of Jewish mysticism, so, I being a huge EVA and Darkstalkers fan, decided to give her a look.
Note: Don't look up or even look at Khabbalisitc stuff. That stuff is meant for well prepared, well tested rabbinical theologins with years of training reasearch and preparation; It is not meant for the average person off the street. I guarantee that if you mess with this stuff and you do not have a strong religious foundation of knowledge, and something you consider absolute truth by which you discern wisdom, then there will be spiritual casualties as a result of you sophmoric attempts to meddle with forces unseen. Consider youself warned.
Anyway I came across the letters of two reaserchers during the middle ages where they related to each other what thed had 'discovered' about Jewish lore. The reason that Lilith is so many things is that there are three of them. It's not all one being. There was Lilith, first wife of adam who left the garden and supposedly became some kind of evil spirit after that. And then there was Samiel. I think that was the devil, or king of hell or something, it's not important; So samiel was the big bad dude, he/it was a spiritual being, when it saw how God made Eve for Adam it became jelous and used it's own body to create genders. In this way, a spiritual Samiel (married fruitlessly to a 'human' Lilith) gave birth to a son and a daughter, respectively named Samiel and Lilith, just to keep things clear. Then Samiel and lilith had a child, which they called Lilith. Confused? Good. I am too. As far as I can remember the origional letters were actually less useful for figuring out who was who.
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devi
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Post by devi on May 10, 2005 22:23:20 GMT -5
By the way, I have no Idea which Lilith is credited with what. I just remember that there were three of them. One couldn't have children, that one was 'human' on was made from samiel's flesh, and one was daughter of Lilith and Samiel. Please note that this is purly apocryphal if it even deserves that much creedence. One of the ways these 'reaserchers' made their discoveries was from inspiration and visions in dreams. I've never known my dreamscape to be particularly historically accurate.
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devi
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Post by devi on May 10, 2005 22:28:26 GMT -5
There is only one biblical refrence to a w hebrew word that might be interpreted as Lilith. But in context it is better translated as the more general "devil" or "monster". That's not to say that it didn't happen. The Bible only contains the information that people need to know. It's not intended as a History book, well some parts kind of are but that's different. Always look at the thing in context.
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Soap
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Post by Soap on May 11, 2005 2:36:04 GMT -5
I'm related to people that think reading Harry Potter makes kids commit suicide... I've not read them myself, but the writing can't be THAT bad! No really, it can.
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Soap
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Post by Soap on May 11, 2005 2:52:34 GMT -5
Devi, you are the second theological guy that I have met on a webcomic forum. I only go to two.
The other guy was, like, 40 and a big fancy professer with a cirtificate and everything though. He explained alot of things about demons and stuff. And by alot, I mean the bastard practically wrote a thesis.
This only makes me more and more angry at not being able to know everything. If I had a djinni that granted me three wishes, my first wish would be to know everything. And I mean EVERYTHING. Actually, that would be my second wish. My first wish would be to not go crazy or die or anything from my second wish. DON'T WANT THOSE CRAZY DJINNI TRYING TO TRICK ME >:[
My third wish would instantly be obvious because I would know everything from the second wish.
I'm one of those wacky kids that has to kill every monster in a level on a game and pick up every item and find every secret on a level in a game before I move on to the next, and have to finish reading every book that I start before moving onto the next and all crazy stuff like that. Now that I've started to read webcomics I want to read the entire archives of every webcomic ever.
Perhaps when I die I shall transcende knowledge. I look forward to it.
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Post by Amelius on May 11, 2005 3:36:54 GMT -5
wow...thanks for sharing that, very informative! I know there's a lot of interesting things out there, but I've tried to keep it simple...and non-offensive if I can ^_^
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Post by X Daggers on May 11, 2005 18:51:31 GMT -5
That's really interesting, yeah. There's some weird stuff out there that would probably drive us mad if we knew. I wish I could know everything, too, but I'd only forget it the next day. I don't really look up old "races" of things like vampires and such because I like to create my own, though.
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Soap
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Post by Soap on May 12, 2005 3:03:05 GMT -5
Sharing time is happy time for friends ^_____________^
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Post by Shippo_no_Neko on May 12, 2005 14:42:16 GMT -5
hey, what weaknesses do your vampires have, like sunlight, inability to cross rivers or water, not going into peoples houses without being invited, etc.
oh, and what race does Charby fall under? i kinda dont think he's a vamp, because he can go out in the sunlight... but wait, he would have to be one becouse he counts stuff... oh, im confuzzled...
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Post by Rehiro on May 12, 2005 16:36:06 GMT -5
Charby is an Elite, Amy talked about them in her explenation of different vampire races on the previous page.
Was Gabrielle turned Elite because of coincidence or because Charby wanted to turn her like him?
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Post by totalbishielockdow on May 12, 2005 22:12:23 GMT -5
Was Gabrielle turned Elite because of coincidence or because Charby wanted to turn her like him? Of course, elites have super-abilities, and almost any entity can be turned elite (only if an elite bite it with that intent though) I can't remember the exact details of the encounter, but I smell a continuity breech. Also, didn't Charby say something about using that straw so he didn't turn his victims, or... something?
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Post by deltaT on May 12, 2005 22:36:38 GMT -5
I thought that turning Gabrielle into an elite was an accident. I'm almost sure it was mentioned somewhere.
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Post by Amelius on May 13, 2005 1:41:00 GMT -5
Normal vampires are photosensitive, so they can't go out in daylight. They have no reflections in mirrors, and an aversion to strong smells. The are also obsessive-compulsive, so whenever something is spilled or untied they have to take care of it. Of course this doesn't mean they are tidy, as they don't care much for their own disheveled appearance (heck, they can't see themselves anyway!) An invitation isn't really needed to enter a home either, they can bust into anyone's home they please. Of course they are trying to keep their existence a little low-key, so Rodericke informs them that this is unnecessary. Not all of them listen though... so for the most part they wait for victims to wander into their territory, which is outside in the darkness. Also, garlic really does little but to annoy the vampire's senses with its strong odor, which they generally find unpleasant. Charby is an elite, a super-race of vampires that has a psuedo-soul energy that both protects the body and maintains it from the outside should it be destroyed. here's an explanationyes, I can see where this is confusing now... What I meant by that particular quote was anything that was not human, like a non-elite vampire, elf or whatever other creature in the forest. Charby could have made Mr. Noodle an elite if he wanted, but ONLY if he wanted to. Even if he was carrying the "virus" Mr. Noodle would be a normal vampire pup like he is now, as it favors humans as a default. It needs a little more for something else to be turned if it isn't human. The mutation is caused also by accident. Charby happened to be carrying the "virus" at the time he infected Gabrielle. He had no intent of chaging her like that. What I mean when I say only if they "want" to change a victim is that they have the power to decide whether their victim will come back as an elite or a regular vampire, without having to carry the infection. If they happen to be carrying the original infection with them at the time though, there is no choice in the matter. Like I said before, it strikes at random and pureblood, spawn and elite alike can carry it at one time or another. and sometimes more than once. they are merely transient vessels for the virus, it stays in the system for about a day until it either moves to another vampire or is passed through to a victim. Vampires don't feed every day, so it makes the chances of being passed on not very common. They never know when they have it or not either so Charby would have had no idea he was carrying the elite-causing strain at the time. The straw he used was so he wouldn't get his saliva, or venom, or whatever it is that is in his mouth that spreads vampirism into the bloodstream. it is much like a vampire bat has, saliva that keeps the blood from clotting so it flows freely from a wound while the vampire feeds (this is also a good way to spread rabies!) it is what infects the body to turn a human into a vampire after an attack, and also immobilizes live victims so they don't thrash about when they are trying to eat. Charby usually killed his victims beforehand so this wasn't really a problem. Very small amounts of this won't turn a human, such as a small bite or exchange of saliva through kissing and such, but right in the bloodstream it will take over the body. It has a reaction with the blood, so to speak.
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devi
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Post by devi on May 13, 2005 14:12:57 GMT -5
So if menu and Claire were to kiss for any extended period... would he be turned?
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Post by deltaT on May 13, 2005 16:59:19 GMT -5
Hmmm....he'd better watch out for playful nips.
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Post by Shippo_no_Neko on May 14, 2005 7:18:56 GMT -5
if Charby, Zerlocke, and that annoying little girl are all elites, why does Zerlocke have wings, and Charby + the little girl not?
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Post by X Daggers on May 14, 2005 11:25:40 GMT -5
Hmm, I was wondering... Since elites become a spirit form thing when their body is exploded, are they invisible? And can they stay like that if they wanted to? So, are there elites out there that are only in spirit form? Could they fade away, perhaps?
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Post by Amelius on May 14, 2005 13:55:29 GMT -5
nah, only if he had an open wound on his mouth where it could enter his bloodstream, and since he is a werewolf already it would likely reject it unless Claire was actually trying to turn him, and she likely wouldn't.
Elites get more demon traits depending on their age. Zerlocke was 22 when he died, so he got wings. Rosemary and Claire were 8, so they are at the same level as Charby. Of course that doesn't mean that a very old human will look horrific as an elite, it pretty much is exclusive to horns and wings. ages 1-10 will be like Charby, 11-20 will maybe have markings or wings, 21-30 wings or horns, beyond that will likely be a comination or with other things like spikes and tails, talons and odd patches of feathers. Some elites are not too happy with their look and hide it (like the elite we usually see cloaked with a mask) they are still unsure why this happens, but there are still only a few elites and the subject has been of little importance to them.
indeed they are invisible, except for by those who casn see spirits, then they appear as either a ghost of their actual body or a small blue orb. If they didn't want to enter their body again they could choose to do so or posess another body. They won't fade away or be harmed in any way when away from their body, but they can be "killed" by a magic weapon such as Zeno's. As of now, the only wandering spirit elite is Cyril, who cannot contact the living world and cannot go so far from his body without being pulled back by the weapon that has his body on lockdown. All he can do is observe things going on around him helplessly.
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Post by Rehiro on May 14, 2005 14:13:15 GMT -5
How about Umatilla? she had wings, is this because she is a second generation vamp? are Umatilla, Roderick and Quixoto all of the same race? are the second generation vamps basically the same as the Elites except to a lesser extent?
If Claire did decide to turn Menu would he become a werewolf vampire? could Menu become an Elite Werewolf? an EliteWolf?
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Post by Amelius on May 14, 2005 14:47:03 GMT -5
Rodericke is a pureblood but he was the 6th generation of the second-gen vampires (which like I said isn't really a "second generation" but applies more to their less-than-demonic appearance. I should come up with a better term...) so his original demon traits are rather unapparent, but Umatilla was descended from ancient purebloods and is only the 4th generation an almost unchanged family bloodline (meaning they didn't evolve into a more human form) ancient PB's and SG's are more like branches in an evolutionary path rather than different races. Sort of like how a badger and an otter are the same kind of animal (mustelids) but they look different. Some vampires changed out of neccesity, the others chose to keep their demon appearance. Also the breeding with human partners helped change the appearance of PB's into SG, as this was before dhampires came about (which are from formerly-human vampires and humans, but they can't breed with eachother)Quixoto is descended straight from one of the first vampires as well, his mother being an original demon vampire (and before her mother there wasn't any vampires at all) and this is why he has this appearance to him. Quixoto and Uma were closer racewise to eachother than to Rodericke, and Uma was closer to Rodericke's type than Q was in this aspect as well.
SG vampires aren't really like elites but they are more powerful than spawns, and ancients are the most powerful in this aspect. So what it basically boils down to is how far down the family line they are and what their ancestors started out as.
Yes indeed, Claire can turn Menu into an elite, but if she just bit him otherwise without that intent his blood would reject the venom as he already has a curse running in his blood. It wouldn't kill him ( unless she drained him) but he would get sick from it.
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